What car is worse with the stock manual?

"Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur" (velocity860)
10/10/2013 at 22:16 • Filed to: Manual

In most cars, if you have the option, you go for the manual, right? Well, not always. The IS300 is a prime case, they only were going to sell it with an automatic at first (with a pseudo-paddle shift mode), but enthusiasts forced them to add a manual a year later. The only problem is that the manual they put in it was, according to some, a "truck transmission", and according to almost all, not great. The clutch was vague, the shift action was notchy, and it couldn't handle any power additions without breaking. So, what other cars should be had without their stock manuals?

DISCUSSION (52)

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:19

Saying a car is worse with a manual? Brace yourself, the shit storm is coming...

Kinja'd!!!

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
10/10/2013 at 22:21

Oh I know, but I'm used to it. Some guy at school calls me "auto" haha

TheOnelectronic > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:23

I'm not sure there are many examples besides yours... most cars with sticks aren't so bad as to be worse than the auto.

Knowing Toyota... you probably got the transmission out of the Tacoma...

Tyler's SVT Focus Hates Him > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:24

The 5-speed in the 00's Cavalier wasn't the worst, but it had the weirdest clutch I'd ever felt. It was like the engagement point changed every shift. Plus I imagine the only Cavaliers w/ manuals were bought by bros who cut the springs and slapped massive fartcans on the back for the sole reason that the manual gear change is more noticeable, thus allowing them to attract more women of questionable character and morals.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 22:25

Yeah that's actually what I've heard. I've never driven the manual on a Tacoma, or on an IS300, but everyone seems to hate it. I have an auto myself, and its not bad, although kinda dumb sometimes.

area man > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:26

I used to think the answer to this was NONE, but then I drove my dad's 2010 Volvo C30. It should be an excellent experience, but the shifter is so soft it's like you're trying to find gears in a cloud, and the clutch has a very high engagement point.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Tyler's SVT Focus Hates Him
10/10/2013 at 22:27

Odd. The worst manual I've driven has been my friend's friend's 98 Outback. I think he hadn't replaced the clutch in like 10 years and I could tell, it was awful. With a better clutch, it might be fine though (although 2nd was out of syncro)

TheOnelectronic > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:27

I drove a manual Tacoma briefly. It was alright, for a truck.

For a truck.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > area man
10/10/2013 at 22:28

Really? I was looking at those for a while, never saw anything about that. Guess I should have driven it though, hah.

PRBot II > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:29

As a supporter of all things manual, this posting intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 22:29

Truck.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > PRBot II
10/10/2013 at 22:30

My newsletter consists of drifting lawnmowers and shoes on fire, does that interest you?

Tyler's SVT Focus Hates Him > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:31

I've heard 90s Subaru transmissions weren't all that great to begin with, though I may just be talking out of my ass since I've never driven one. You may just be right, though 10 years on a single clutch is a pretty long time.

PRBot II > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:31

Very much so, sir.

Followed.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > PRBot II
10/10/2013 at 22:32

Crap now I have to actually post things

PRBot II > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:34

Oh, come on. You do.

Somethingwittyer likes noisy > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:35

I've heard the F10 M5 manual isn't great. Throws take way to long apparently and there's a lot of notable turbo lag with it.

As for the IS, so close yet so far. To me their one of the best looking sedans of all time, had so much style you'd be surprised it was made by Toyota. I would love to have one but I really want a manual tranny, and frankly even finding one is to much trouble.

All Lexus needed to do was give the second gen a proper manual and make it a bit bigger (rear leg room was compact sized according to NHTSA), instead they beiged the fuck out of the second gen and then did a complete 180 with the third gen, making it butt ugly and taking away the manual. Don't forget the fact the engines are totally outdated. Shame, apparently the chassis is actually quite solid.

As for your IS, what have you done to the manual? Is it any better?

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:39

Kinja'd!!!

I've heard mixed reviews on how it drives, but the Honda Element always was weird since the gear selector is mounted vertically on the dashboard. Your arm is on an awkward angle to shift.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Somethingwittyer likes noisy
10/10/2013 at 22:40

First of all, I have an automatic IS, haha. Second, yeah the manuals are impossible to find without them being beat to hell and with 200k miles on them. Also, the second gen IS is terribad I'll agree, but the third gen I'll disagree on. Personally, I think its a really good looking car, and even though the engines are old-ish, they are still good and not really outdated (well, the 350's engine at least).

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:41

Oh and you have to see the car in person to appreciate it. Pictures don't make it that pretty at all

Manuél Ferrari > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 22:42

I know you guys are going to kill me for this. But I actually think a lot of modern sports cars and sports sedans with MTs are worse than the version with the DCT. I'm not saying that the MTs are poorly made or that MTs are better than DCTs. I like the feel of an MT myself. What I mean is that lots of modern cars had most the R&D budget for transmission development poured into the DCT, so the MT didn't get enough money to be tuned to work as well as possible with the car.

Not every car company suffers from this. Some offer good MTs alongside a DCT. But others skim on costs and design the car to work with a DCT and then throw in the MT option to appease specific markets. The biggest example of this is the V10 BMW M5. While the single clutch SMG was jerky the MT option was worse. The MT was added because US bimmer fans revolted at the idea of no MT option and BMW added it in last minute. The MT can't handle the power of the car (per Edmunds):

"A six-speed manual transmission can also be specified, but it overheated in a test car we had a few years ago, and it also comes with a non-defeatable stability control system, which is befuddling in light of the M5's super-sedan identity."

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder!
10/10/2013 at 22:42

Ew that looks nasty

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:44

I've been told that the stick in the V6 Camaro is a pile of slop-shifting ass, but this was by my friend justifying a purchase of a V6 auto, so how solidly true that is, I don't know.

SonorousSpeedJoe > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:44

Motor Trend 's Jonny Liebermann said in his review of the BMW M6 Gran Coupe that the U.S.-only manual is an old unit and not worth it compared to the DCT.

TheOnelectronic > Manuél Ferrari
10/10/2013 at 22:45

This could well become a problem as time progresses, but I think in the recent past at least, companies could still use the transmissions that had been developed for older cars. I'm pretty sure Subaru's been using the same 5-speed in the WRX since dinosaurs roamed the earth.

That said, I've never run into a problem with it. The worst MT I experienced was in the 335i, and that was mostly just down to sludgy feel.

Milky > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:52

According to CarBuyer's video that went up today, the new 5 series is also better with the auto.

Your boy, BJR > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:55

The Cadillac ATS is atrocious. Klunky as hell and a bizarre clutch feel. One of the long list of grievances I have against Cadillac.

Somethingwittyer likes noisy > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:55

I've seen them multiple times in person. Their fantastic.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Your boy, BJR
10/10/2013 at 22:56

No way, really? I've only heard greatness about it!

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Somethingwittyer likes noisy
10/10/2013 at 22:56

You know I'm talking about the 3rd gen IS, the one you called "butt ugly", right?

Your boy, BJR > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 22:59

It feels like a dump truck from the '70s with no transmission fluid. And I hate, HATE, HATE it! (worked for cadillac for awhile. Learned to hate that company and everything they've ever made)

Manuél Ferrari > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 22:59

I totally agree that as long as an existing MT design will work with a future model then there is no problem (other than fuel economy, as there may not be as many gears as a more modern MT). But sometimes the car changes enough to need a new MT design. If the new car has more power than the prior MT can handle then a new one needs to be developed. If the company doesn't give the engineers a big enough budget to develop the MT properly then they have to reduce the amount of time they spend on it.

Funny that you also experienced a sub-par MT on a BMW. I at one point or another owned a bimmer from every decade from the 80s until now. I absolutely loved the MTs they used in the 80s and 90s. The clutch feel was progressive and not too light or too heavy. But when I test drove cars before buying my 2004 E46 M3 I didn't like the one example I drove with an MT. Given it was just one car and maybe something was wrong with it. But while SMG isn't perfect the MT seemed to have seriously progressed compared to the older bimmers I had owned. The clutch pedal was just weird. The feel changed right before it was fully depressed and you had to drive the car really carefully to not stall when accelerating from a stop. I don't know if this is the case with all E46 M3s with the MT, but I had read that BMW had focused more on the SMG than the MT.

Maybe BMW made a corporate decision a while back to skimp on R&D costs for MTs across their entire range?

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Your boy, BJR
10/10/2013 at 22:59

Odd

Your boy, BJR > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:01

http://wot.motortrend.com/exclusive-2013…

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Your boy, BJR
10/10/2013 at 23:04

Well I'll be a monkey's anus; you're right!

Manuél Ferrari > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 23:06

And BTW - one of my cars does have a MT, so I'm definitely no MT hater. I got the MT when getting my Porsche 997.II, even though PDK was an option and a very smooth one at that. I test drove both and felt that the MT was well designed. PDK would have saved fuel since it came with an extra gear. But I didn't feel like I was getting a car with a compromised transmission. My guess is that the MT worked well due to the reason you brought up - it was probably designed for the 996 and Porsche had no need to change it much since the 997 is just an evolution of the 996. They could dedicate R&D dollars to PDK development without impacting the MT since it had already been developed and tuned for the chassis and engine a while ago.

I'm curious how the new 7MT feels in the Porsche 991. Their approach to that transmission seems innovative. They figured out how to make a MT version of the latest PDK transmission instead of having two totally separate development paths for each transmission.

Your boy, BJR > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:08

I also have a rather large scar on my arm and several smaller ones on my hand from the IDIOTIC placement of SRX oil filters........But didn't mean to derail. Also not a great manual is the 2011-2012 Hyundai Sonata.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Your boy, BJR
10/10/2013 at 23:08

Don't even get me started on the oil filter in my car...

Satish Kondapavulur > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:20

Well, I did write this...

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/cars-that-shou…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > TheOnelectronic
10/10/2013 at 23:21

It's the W55 from the old Crown and Corona's of the 80's.

similar to the W58's that were in the non-turbo JZA80 Supras.

That said the R154 from the twin turbo JZA80's fits in minimal effort.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Satish Kondapavulur
10/10/2013 at 23:24

Similar, but not the same. I'm mainly asking, "what manuals are shit", while you're saying that those cars should be had auto because having a manual in them is stupid, right?

Somethingwittyer likes noisy > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:26

Opps. I have seen the 3rd gen in person. Horrid. The rap around tail lights, the stupid ass spliter that tries to be a character line but is too half-assed to, the split headlights, the predator grill, and those STUPID intakes that are pointed inward, towards the grill. I honestly it's one of the worst looking cars ever. I can't stand it.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Somethingwittyer likes noisy
10/10/2013 at 23:28

I like it :c

Satish Kondapavulur > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:28

A little bit of both. Especially with the 5-Series.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Satish Kondapavulur
10/10/2013 at 23:29

Well ok. But no harm in asking oppo here, eh?

Somethingwittyer likes noisy > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/10/2013 at 23:58

Went into rage mode. Here's a Bub in forgiveness.

Kinja won't post a gif for some reason.

liquidfox > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/11/2013 at 03:02

i actually drive one. it's great...as long as you sit close and vertical, like you're pretending to be a 70s rally driver (which i do anyway).

area man > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/11/2013 at 08:06

Yeah, most of the reviews mentioned that the car is probably better with the autobox.

Carl (@stuffcarlsays) > Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur
10/11/2013 at 08:31

Nissan Altima 2.5. Had a 2007 example and it was awful. The gearbox ratios, as far as I could tell, were spec'd for a 3.5L model and never seemed to take advantage of this car's 140 ft/lb of torque at 54,000 rpms. My wife was pleased as punch when I took it to get it washed and fill the tires and returned with a 2013 Jetta 2.5SE for her instead.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Carl (@stuffcarlsays)
10/14/2013 at 22:37

54k?

Carl (@stuffcarlsays) > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
10/15/2013 at 08:36

Exaggerating that figure a bit. You had to rev the nuts off it to get any torque.

gamefreak32 > Carl (@stuffcarlsays)
10/15/2013 at 23:40

All that I gathered out of that is Nissan has a shit 2.5 engine or can't tune a transmission to that engine. My roommate had the CVT and it was no better. From a stop it would rev up to 3-3.5k and put you in the grasp of torque and then quickly take you out. I still haven't figured out how he got decent gas mileage out of that thing. I guess he didn't have to do a lot of stopping and starting.